Formula E

redapg

Sorry, but what happens to racing????? After the soundchanging from wow! to wtf in Formula 1, we now have a new series with no sound? Come on....

 
Its evolution I guess, not a fan of it either, its not like 20 cars are going to add much to global warming. but at least they try to avoid using planes and such to move them around. Bit of an redundant gesture though.

Lets hope the masses don't pickup on it and it dies a slow and painless death :)
 
It's the future of racing IMO. Racing is where street car technology is born and a racing series like this was only a matter of time. How many years until F1 goes completely electric?


It makes me scratch my head when some want this in rF2. :p
 
I have no problem with evolution, but i have a big problem when racing comes along with worse or no sounds :).

And when manufacturers like Porsche have a complete section for sound-design for their normal street-cars, it should be possible to adapt this to racing too (in a different way clearly).
Electricity is there anyway and all needed components are available. ;)

Racing without adequate sounds, for me, looses more than the half of it's atmosphere.
 
Formula-E is racing mostly for the 'tree-hugging' set.
That's okay....as long as it doesn't encroach on F1 broadcast.
I still want my internal combustion unit...even if it supplemented by electric motors.
 
I am personally a big fan of F-e because of its purpose as technology booster. Electric motors are extremelly more efficient than ICUs, a good ICU achieves about 30% efficiency. That means it transfers about 30% of energy released by combusting its fuel into the force its meant to produce, in our case torque. The rest is wasted and gotten rid of. As heat through radiators and exhaust gases. As light when expolosion occurs. As noise when explosion occurs. And all the frictional resistances along the drivetrain produce even more unwanted heat as wasted energy. I dont know what efficiency current high-end electric motors achieve. But its miles miles better than ICUs, Thats why i consider it to be our future or energy tranforming device. Which is basically what engines are. The biggest issue currently is our incompetence in storing pure electric energy. I strongly believe that Formula 1 with ERS and especially Formula e will have significant impact on this technology from which the entire humanity will benefit. Yes, i mean batteries.
Thats why i am a big fan and trully hope that Formula e will be largery popular, as more popular it gets, more money will go into it.

Thanks to all above, what i also enjoy is that the regulations in Formula E are far more inteligent than in F1. The cars have far better aerodynamics in terms of drag because stupid regulations do not forbit from covering the wheels of the car to avoid that massive drag they produce. in F1 wheels are currently the very most unaerodynamic, turbulence and drag producing objects on the car. And they are not allowed to do anything about it.
Next year Formula E will be far more interesting. As for this year all teams got their cars and have to race them as they are with absolutelly minima differences in between each other. But for next season that door will open.
 
I find the whole 'noise hysteria' quite amusing to be honest. Racing is racing, it's about what goes on on the track between competing drivers in state of the art machinery. Not how it sounds.

Big Formula E fan and a huge F1 2014 fan as well, both regarding look and sound.
 
hexagramme said:
I find the whole 'noise hysteria' quite amusing to be honest. Racing is racing, it's about what goes on on the track between competing drivers in state of the art machinery. Not how it sounds.

Big Formula E fan and a huge F1 2014 fan as well, both regarding look and sound.
Click to expand...
To a point that is true, however, then sensation of speed makes it better in most cases. I have seen an electric go kart once, and it looked A LOT slower then the petrol-powered go karts, and looked really boring. However, the people who got to drive it said it was excually way faster, and very exciting..... Off course, if the racing is really great the speed and the sound (or lack of it) doesn't matter too much (I have seen a Clio Cup race with over 40, maybe 50 cars at Spa, and it was great fun to watch) but the sensation of speed sure adds a lot to the excitement, as does the loud sounds (at least in person, on tv it is less so)!!!
 
Just watch some sci fi movie that has cars and they all sound like this, even in Star Wars the howering cars. Its the sound movie sound engineeres chose to use as futuristic. And people go like "Hooah thats cool how it sounds". And now its reality.
 
hexagramme said:
I find the whole 'noise hysteria' quite amusing to be honest. Racing is racing, it's about what goes on on the track between competing drivers in state of the art machinery. Not how it sounds.

Big Formula E fan and a huge F1 2014 fan as well, both regarding look and sound.
Click to expand...

What he said!
 
hexagramme said:
I find the whole 'noise hysteria' quite amusing to be honest.......
Click to expand...

For me it has nothing to do with "hysteria". It's just my personal impression.

When you (my impression ;)) have ever been on a racetrack to watch a race live, the sound makes a lot.
My most impressive experience was the start of the Formula 1 race at Hockenheim in 1993, sitting directly at start/finish-line.
 
Nah, no hysteria here either.

Its not just about technical evolution. like Mike states, all them things that go on under the hood that are theoretically awesome and will help mankind survive into the future.....its also about immersion.

I'm not a tech guy, I don't see those parts being awesome, I don't see the 30% increase because ICU, all I see is the outside, what a driver does, and how it sounds, how it looks, it gives me essential info on what's going on and helps me to understand and get exited.
I know when a car is about to explode because the engine sounds iffy, I know when Raikonnen has issues before the commentators see it because I saw his rear-flap malfunctioning for 2 laps, I saw Rosberg doubling his gears well before Couldhart did, I knew it was the end for him.
I love DRS in F1 not just because they can drag/slip/pass but because it gives me a tool to be able to follow it just that little bit closer and get more exited about it. I can see what's going on.

It works the same with sound for me. Not just because its awesome to listen to, it gives info, tells a story, warns on forehand and it is violent. (and it smells better)

Comparing it with sci-fi films is just downgrading it to something silly, its far from F-E reality what they do in movies, 'an electrical sound' is not what those sound-designers where after or they might as well could have used their mom's hair dryer for the lot of them :p

I don't want to sit on the couch with a spreadsheet of awesome evolutionary items and then look at it allot in order to be able to say how fricking cool this is.

But hey, if they decide to race close to or in my country, i'de probably go see it anyways :)
 
Im am into science so our point of views differs. But Keep in mind this is evolution same way petrol engines were back in 1920s when they were replacing steam engines. People also didnt like them, they were worse than Steam engines of the day, because the technology was not developed and invented yet. But the manufactures saw the advantage of petrol over steam and what potential it has, its exactly that same for electric motors.
And you can hear them the same way as you hear an ICU, only a bit quiter, if there is something going on with the motor, its sounds will also change. And because Formal E does have gears, what happened to Rosberg may as well happen to Prost. DRS is just a rule that took place some years ago, it will probably take place in F-e too, well, assuming that in some years of development they will move onto faster tracks.

Everything you said is possible in F-e too. you just need to get rid of your "new technology resistance stance"
i hate iPhones btw.... or the whole smart phone idea..:D
 
Ah ok, its my inability to adapt to change that is causing my resistance, fair enough, glad that's sorted then :)
 
I watched the first one (Shanghai, I believe). It's bad when they have to add music to a racing broadcast. Treaded skinny tires that belong on a Skip Barber car. Did anyone notice the audience? Was just "ok" smaller than an Indycar race. I won't be watching another one.

Ask the Isle of Man audience what they think of electric bikes. They want them gone, calling them appliances.
 
tiny tyres are to reduce rolling frictional resistance, its all to do with the batteries, as they are saving energy, so as the technology develops, the cars will get faster and more fun, just give it a chance
 
I know what the tiny tires are for. I gave it one chance, that was one too many.

Changing CARS halfway through the race? :rolleyes:
 
It's always funny watching a discussion between those who think that things should never change and those who know things have to change sooner or later. Lol
 
I more would say it's funny to see how a thread can take a complete weird direction :D:D:D

It's like to open a thread with: i like like banana-ice-cream
which ends with: people in the 3rd world who reap bananas are exploited.
 
B-but, they are...

I don't mind change at all but not all evolution is awesome just because its evolution, as a fan there's certain characteristics one likes, and others not, simple as that.
To me its funny that once someone doesn't like a change it automatically categorizes them as change-haters. preferences can be without labels you'know, its all good :p
 
Denstjiro said:
B-but, they are...

I don't mind change at all but not all evolution is awesome just because its evolution, as a fan there's certain characteristics one likes, and others not, simple as that.
To me its funny that once someone doesn't like a change it automatically categorizes them as change-haters. preferences can be without labels you'know, its all good :p
Click to expand...

For me racing it's like music or art in general; at the time someone has to explain you how it works, how to understand it, how to take it, how to feel it...then yeah, it's going to be boring. :D
 
Should give it another chance, that track was terribly boring and made for a poor race. The design of the car is a bit odd with large sidepods, wings and then grooved street tires - meh. I would prefer to see it without the wings and a battery large enough to inspire a sprint race, but whatever. They just really need to design new uprights so they don't break and have wheels coming apart so easily. With a good fast flowing track it could make a good race, unless they are still really going to be limited on power use, then forget it.
 
I think the biggest killer so far is that the 1st and 2nd race are 70 days apart? How are people supposed to stay tuned up when they put more than two months in between races...
 
Hi Mike,

You probably realise this, but it was probably necessary in the first season for everyone to work out what they needed to fix for the next race. I imagine it won't always be this way
 
I guess you have a point, especially for Heidfeld and Prost :mad:
I am sure the 2nd season is going to kick butt
 
Last edited:
A bit late to this thread, but I must say I like Formula E. Sure, they're not the loudest or fastest cars racing, but they are most definitely pressing the boundaries technology wise. And don't fool yourself, they are quick. For the purists out there turning up their noses at it, look at F1 today and the electric power integrated into the engine package. Formula E is just a logical extension of this and allows manufacturers to push it even further. The list of owners/drivers is like a who's who of open wheel racing, something totally unexpected [to me at least] but definite proof that we're seeing these cars driven to their limits [and some damn fun racing]. Lastly, the 2015 season shows even more promise with the teams being allowed to be more creative with their own designs [within the rules of course].
Wait... Whaaa? Their coming to Miami! Sweet! Okay, not the greatest circuit design but it's right here in me back yard [so to speak]. Will definitely have to get out so I can at least offer up a first hand opinion.
 
Last edited:
i personally think that it would not be any more fun than f.e R3.5 but rF2 doesnt have necessary features implemented anyway as far as i know. f.e. recharging and so on
 
I might risk be called "purist", but if F1 goes this way, I am bailing out. As a mechanical engineer, I have always been in favor of evolution. I think street electric cars can be a great bonus to the world, if they ever come up with a decent set of batteries and how to dispose of them when they go bad or the car is recycled.

As far as lack of evolution in Grand Prix engines, in the 50's, the specific power output of a F1 engine was 100 bhp/liter. In the 80"s, the turbo era, it was 750 bhp/liter. The end result is that FIA banned them.
Mid 2000's piston acceleration was 10,000+ g's, with force imposed in the crankpins reaching 6000 kg!
FIA has been hamstringing engine designers since 1990, blocking exotic materials, high revving engines and any other development engineers dreamed about.

Yet when you look at the power plant package of the 2014 cars, it is a marvel of engineering. Even with all restrictions, including engine development during the duration of the current regulations, engineers came up with something extraordinary in the time they were given.

I hate their sound though; they sound like Diesels with a bad cold, and together with the current stupidity prevalent among the F1 suits, F1 has been gradually chocking to death. Just look at the grandstands and TV audience ratings.

It has been said here ICU's have poor fuel efficiency. Modern street cars with gasoline direct injection have reached 35%, and street TDI Diesels 50% fuel efficiency, so the figure of 30% given here is way off the mark.

Again, even f I may be called sound hysterical, I think that is how a Grand Prix car should sound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SoZiTxdQyw
 
your efficency figures, is that energy at the end of crank shaft or at the end of axle?

Motors are more effective not only thanks to their very concept of recreating electric energy into kinetic energy (therefore one form of energy directly into another, no other medium to store the energy - no leftovers like CO and CO2) But also thanks to margingly less moving parts involved in the drive train. Dont look at F1 for an example as to what i mean, look at La Ferrari or 918, they have independent motors bolted directly to the wheels, there is no drive shaft, no differencial, only axles. Instead of countless angular joints you have 2 per wheel. Also the fuel efficiency of turbo engines are obviously massively larger since the biggest waste of energy in ICU is temprature of which around 50+% goes away with exhaust gases, the rest is get rid of via radiators.
 
Brake thermal efficiency, measured at the end of the crankshaft. Mazda is claiming very high thermal efficiency for their Skyactiv technology, I believe 15% higher than other modern engines.
 
Crankshaft, there you go, but that is the ICU only, without the rest of the drivetrain that is neccessary for ICUs, not so much for electric motors
 
The point I am trying to make is that, if the power plant development were left unrestrained in the last 30+ years, efficiency levels would be much higher than what we have today. Racing engine engineers are some of the most creative engineers in the profession. An example was the introduction of pneumatic control of valves, which eliminated the restriction imposed on engines by valve spring float. Ceramic pistons, when first introduced, would last one hour, today they are good for 3000 km.

I am not contending that they could be as efficient as a high performance electric motor. But if you look at the power plant of Formula E cars, they have a 5-speed transmission that will reduce overall efficiency since they do not match the mechanical efficiency of a F1 transmission.

By the way, La Ferrari does not use independent electric motors directly bolted to the wheels. It has one electric motor bolted to rear of the gearbox, and power (engine + electric motor) is applied through rear drive shafts.

The 918 uses the same concept as La Ferrari for the rear wheels, but the electric motor is located between gas engine and transmission. The front electric motor is connected though drive shafts to the front wheels. I believe the electric motor is a high RPM, and there is probably some reduction gearing between motor and wheels.

I don't expect to see individual electric motors mounted to each wheel, as the Caterpillar MT4400D AC does. Interestingly, the Cat 993F, their highest payload truck, uses a 7-speed planetary transmission coupled to the rear axle.

Anyway, this could be extended ad nauseam .
 
Last edited:
i love that you know what you are talking about. For sure the restrictions are slowing and preventing development, but racing isnt the only place where it happends, Look at Koenigsegg, in my opinion one of the most technology driven car maker in terms of improving what we already have and making it epic. Their power units have fantastic HP to Volume of diplacement ratio etc. The only production car with carbon fibre rims, even F1 uses magnesium for their rims. So restricting racing unquestionably is a massive factor in terms of ICU development, but its not elimination.

The steps in evolution of ICU will now be smaller and smaller and there will be no breakthru anymore since all sorts of companies use very detailed science to get the most of what they are doing, from fuel to tyres. In my eyes we need a completelly new concept and electric motors are a fantastic step up once all the drawbacks are overcome
 
I really enjoyed the chance to bounce ideas with someone who knows what he is sharing. I have spent a good part of my life studying internal combustion engines, have loved and always will love them.
Very few mechanical sounds will ever rival the Ferrari F1 1966/67, or the 312 PB prototypes of early 70's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR9kh6SzFPk

The downshifts are pure music!
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top